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The American Caliban

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hey feedle [Jun. 27th, 2005|09:42 am]
The American Caliban
It's yours to deny. And don't tell me you don't know what I mean.
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 06:33 pm (UTC)
I'm not going to play passive-agressive shit with you. Only a coward hides behind "locked entries" and innuendo.

You felt you needed to inform the police. Fine, you have that right, regardless of what I may think about it. Similarly, I felt I needed to do what I needed to do. I still feel you (and the others in the post) overreacted, and since I personally know the gentleman in question, I was obligated to inform him.

If you have a problem with somebody, a "real man" confronts them and discusses it. They don't hide. You, by hiding, chose a path of cowardace. I, on the other hand, chose instead to confront the person: ask them WTF, and discuss it between myself, them, and a mutual friend (who is a professional photographer and understands the laws, which apparently you don't).

That's what a real "man" does. Well, an honorable one, anyway.
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 06:54 pm (UTC)
"Not starting drama." Interesting language from someone who thinks calling the police is preferable to finding out the whole story first.
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 06:57 pm (UTC)
Further:

How can I give out something I DON'T HAVE? I don't know who you are.. do I know you?

(I'm being serious here. I have no idea who you are.. I don't posess any magic(k) ability to derive e-mails from LJ usernames, other than what's in your profile.. just like any other user)
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 07:00 pm (UTC)
So, you felt it appropriate to publically accuse me of giving your E-mail address to somebody... and that's not creating drama?

What the fuck is your damage?
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 07:24 pm (UTC)
I do appreciate the fact that you were direct and didn't hide behind a bunch of bullshit.

And, regardless of your sex (please don't take this wrong): it does make you "a real man" in my eyes.. or a "real woman", if that's more comfortable for you.

*sigh*
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 07:15 pm (UTC)
I wonder-wonder-wonder how they got it, considering it isn't listed in my userinfo. Wonder-wonder-wonder.

That sounds like an accusation. Considering the post was directed at me, I am right to take offense.

I'm done with this whole topic.

I'm sorry that not everybody can be an adult. I was concerned that people were talking behind a friend's back, and wanted to get his side of the story. Considering the seriousness of the accusations involved, I felt it best to involve a mutual friend with considerable experience in the law regarding photography in public places. I can't defend the actions of a third, unrelated party that might have gotten ahold of the communication either out of context, or who wasn't intended to see it. Maybe I need to take everybody involved (on my side) aside and explain to them what my intentions were, and that flaming people out of context is not appropriate in any situation.

However, consider the following: nothing on LJ is ever private. It would have eventually come out, because there are servers who's whole job it is to archive "private" posts and make them public. Additionally, there are thousands of hands who have access to the information stored on LJ's servers: any one of these hands could release sentitive posts and information. As I was instructed twenty years ago when I first started calling BBS's: never put anything into an online system that you wouldn't mind the whole world knowing about.

On a personal note: I genuinely, sincerely apologize that you had your personal space violated. That was not appropriate, and the person who did that deserves (and will get from me) a good tounge lashing. How they got your E-Mail address I can only guess .. (and I have a pretty good guess based on your apparent common hobbies).

Also, I'm not totally insensitive.. I'm deeply troubled that I picked a horrible time to start a flame-war on substitute's LJ. I was completely unaware of his recent medical issues, as I'm a few degrees of seperation from him directly anyway (and live almost 1000 miles away).

I have 20 hours of driving ahead of me. Be assured I will spend a significant time in reflective thought over this issue.
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 07:27 pm (UTC)
Okay, so what do you want me to do? I can't go back into time and change what I did.
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 07:37 pm (UTC)
I tried to do that previously. All you did was further bite off my head.

I don't apologize for forwarding the post to "morven". He was being seriously accused of allegedly major crimes behind his back. I was worried for his sake, and for the sake of mutual friends who are more directly connected between us.

I also can't apologize for other people's reactions to your personal comments. I can only apologize that you had your personal space violated because of my actions (which I did).

Any apology due Conrad is only appropriate if/when Conrad asks for it. Perhaps, when he feels better and we can talk about it without upsetting each other, it will come out. Only then would it be genuine anyway. I did apologize for starting a flame war at a completely inappropriate time in his life.

And I'm now thoroughly done. I've delayed my departure to deal with this, and now must delay no longer.
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[User Picture]From: fimmtiu
2005-06-27 11:29 pm (UTC)
Also, I'm not totally insensitive.. I'm deeply troubled that I picked a horrible time to start a flame-war on substitute's LJ.

There is never, ever a good time to start a flame war on somebody's journal. If you cannot comprehend this simple fact, then I feel very sorry for the people around you. Let's hope you do, in fact, spend that time in reflective thought, rather than reflexive self-justification.
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[User Picture]From: substitute
2005-06-27 09:22 pm (UTC)
If your concern was that your friend was now likely to be in trouble with the police, and that this was unjust, and that on a point of principle you felt strongly that this person needed to be informed, why was it also necessary to give him the identity of his accuser? All you had to say was "I have reason to believe that someone is mad about your pictures and has reported to the police. You might want to take some of those pics down and stay clear of HB for a while." You're far too smart not to know that. You did this out of spite because we had an argument. Is that what an "honorable" "real man" does?

Giving him my own information on the sly is somewhere between "starting shit" and "intimidating a witness". It's also in violation of the terms of service of this website. A "real man" doesn't use internet post cut and paste to make trouble.

If you can give my privileged communication to the subject of that communication behind my back, then you have really no grounds for accusing me of cowardice or not being a "real man".
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From: (Anonymous)
2005-06-27 10:26 pm (UTC)
It is the law. A person, accused of a crime, has the right to know his accuser.

In this situatution, the person accused of a crime, he did not commit, was informed of his accusers.

Why is it so difficult for the members of this posting to understand that the real crime was begun when you, Sustitue, brought forth "a call to action". You yourself tainted the view of the images on a public website when you epressed your opinion of the prior to your friends viewing them. This in itself is fine, but to then to accuse this person of a crime when it is clear you yourself are unaware and ignorant of the law to begin with.

Once I had been informed about this posting, I forwarded the basic email I'd recieved to Morven and followed it up with a phone call. This man is part of my close circle of friends, we are family. I know him very well and did not view the photos in quite the same way as you and your friends did. In truth, as a professional photographer, I was more perplexed at the waste space by them. However, I knew that none of them were breaking any laws.

There is an expectancy of privacy in a person's backyard, in a bathroom or within their own home. But in you are on a public beach, the expectancy of privacy is nil.

None of the images were of children. It might be possible that a person was a year shy of 18, however, it would need to be proven, and still there is no law broken here.

The photos would have to be for sale to have broken any kind of civil rights. And for them to actually be illegal... well a lot more would have to be going on and the people would have to be a great deal younger before the police would be involved.

My greatest issue here is that a law abidding citizen was accused of degerate actions he did not commit. Simply because you disagree with the images does not mean a law has been broken. It was strongly implied and noted that he "likes children" in ways not fitting a polite society. It was at that point you committed a crime. Libel: A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.


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[User Picture]From: substitute
2005-06-27 10:42 pm (UTC)
Your comments are detailed and cogent.

It is illegal take pictures of minors without their parents' permisssion. This law was enacted exactly because predatory adults were photographing minors in public places. Minors are those under 18. I did not either publicly or privately accuse anyone of pedophilia, which is an entirely different matter. I do believe that the police know the difference, and the law, and it is their business whether any violation of law has occurred.

Someone does in fact have the right to know his accusers when he is being charged with a crime. However, no one has to my knowledge been charged with a crime, and it's likely no one will be. It is not the "law" that anyone who disagrees with a report to the police must then inform his friend who is accused and give the friend the accuser's address. That is making up your own law at home, and it's different from criminal law. If your friend is ever charged with a crime related to my report, it's possible that I would be asked to provide information to the police, and in that case it would become a matter of public record and the constitutional protection you refer to would come into effect.

A tip sent to the police is not a charge. That is why they can be done anonymously. You know that.

I understand and respect your view that your friend has committed no crime; I disagree. I have not brought any charges, nor can I; if a crime was indeed committed I am not the victim and I do not have this right.

I sent a tip to the police, and I conversed in private with my friends about it. No libel can have been committed, nor has any charge been brought. None of your "law" applies.

If indeed your friend has not taken pictures of minors on the beach, he has committed no crime and I am pleased to offer an apology. If he has, it's a matter between him and the police.
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From: (Anonymous)
2005-06-27 11:44 pm (UTC)
Substitue, thank you for your reply. I can see that we disagree about things. Can we agree to disagree?

In truth, nothing from this point can be changed. You've made your move and now it's a matter of waiting.

I would like to address the email address concern others have posted. Feedle did not give out people's email address. He did forward a copy of the post, but that was all. The Mrs. herself located each person's email on their public profiles.

I recognize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion about this situation. I would just like to remind everyone that while we each sit at the computer and comment back and forth to one another, some may forget that a real person sits on the other end.

Yvonne

I meant to sign the last post, but I accidentally hit enter. My appologies.
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[User Picture]From: substitute
2005-06-27 11:51 pm (UTC)
Yvonne:

It's true that nothing can be changed from this point.

I would just like to remind everyone that while we each sit at the computer and comment back and forth to one another, some may forget that a real person sits on the other end.

If anyone has forgotten that, it is neither myself nor your friend.
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[User Picture]From: hep
2005-06-27 10:58 pm (UTC)
LOL THIS INTERNET JUSTIFICATION FOR MY HYPOCRISY USES LOTS OF BIG WORDS. THAT MEANS ITS TRUE! OMG DRAMA!
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[User Picture]From: feedle
2005-06-27 06:50 pm (UTC)
And, for the record, I did not "give all your information" to anybody.

I did forward to them a printout of the locked post in question so they could know what they were accused of. Any other information they may have obtained was on their own, or through other parties.

Accuse me in public of shit, not in private.
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[User Picture]From: eamajyn
2005-06-27 09:03 pm (UTC)
The bottom line is that you gave my journal name and a a comment I made in a protected entry to a stranger who would not have known of me otherwise, and who as a result responded to me, and everyone else who commented in private, with hostile threats.

Furthermore, you broke the confidence of someone who trusted you, which just sucks. The police are there for a reason, to protect the innocent. If you don't believe in the police, that is fine, but it isn't your job to tell another person not to use them. What's done is done and you are not a cop, so it's not up to you anymore to decide what is right or wrong, not that it ever was.

Considering this person's wife's reaction to everybody who gave our friend support, I think it was a wise decision for him to go to the police instead of confronting the guy. This is 2005, not a new civilization where there are 5 people to a tribe who carry clubs to deal with their problems.

Lastly, I may just report you to LJ for violation of my privacy. Just letting you know "in public".
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[User Picture]From: bruisedhips
2005-06-27 09:30 pm (UTC)
I have reported a violation of my privacy. I suggest you do the same.
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[User Picture]From: eamajyn
2005-06-27 09:50 pm (UTC)
Done.
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[User Picture]From: tuliphead
2005-06-27 09:35 pm (UTC)
I did forward to them a printout of the locked post in question so they could know what they were accused of. Any other information they may have obtained was on their own, or through other parties.

Accuse me in public of shit, not in private.


I am publicly accusing you of being an asshole.
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[User Picture]From: ranai
2005-06-27 10:24 pm (UTC)
I have to concur. There were several ways this could have been gone about on his part without involving people who had merely voiced an opinion, not acted themselves, and without giving their identifying information to someone.
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